Zimbabwe

Lucifer_666 · Zimbabwe

Is it just me that thinks we aren't getting the full fair and balanced picture of this whole thing?.....We are constantly, particularly in the UK media, being told how bad their leader mugabe is and I know he is no angel but I do think there is many of what we would consider 'bad' leaders/dictators in the world and even in Africa and we never get on their backs?
I really feel the reason why there is such a big condemnation of him and his policies here is because he took land away from the whites to give back to the blacks (after years of British ownership and rule) I won't get into the rights or wrongs about that but I do think it plays a part on how we are judging things there now. I bring this up because today the Opposition MDC party have withdrawn from the election and we have the media now reporting that this was mainly due to Mugabe's scare tactics and apparent violence....the MDC have definitely declared this!! Though I find this hard to believe as the MDC and all political groups there in Zimbabwe are used to these tactics and its not just Mugabe that employs them contrary to what alot believe...now this is a party that has gone neck and neck with Mugabe in elections not that long ago
and are we to believe that violence wasn't a factor back then? In fact they can't because at the time all the media here were reporting it then too...so why really pull out now? Although it gives me no great pleasure to think that Robert Mugabe is right...he's saying "They knew they were in line for a humiliating defeat and thats why they have withdrawn!"...and I'm wondering is this actually the real truth!

Catnapper

At least with the white farmers Zimbabwe was known as tbe "bread basket" of Africa for its plentiful supply of food. Thanks to Mugabe forcing the farmers off the land, Zimbabwe's people are going hungry and the average life span for adults there has plummeted to their thirties. Mugabe is a tyrant who rules by intimidation and violence but he refuses to take the blame for anything. He's even likened himself to Adolf Hitler....which gives a good idea of what he's like

The last election was a joke.......the opposition supposedly won it but he wouldn't give the results, probably because he knew he'd lost it in the first place! The MDC leader had no choice but to give up......his supporters have been hunted down and some have been killed.

Emperor Morphetine

It's a terrible state of affairs, and it will end horribly unless something is done. The international community needs to show some bottle and get the tyrant out of power, he's ruled by force for a jawdropping 28 years now and it can't go on.

Lucifer_666

Yeah I agree he handled things (economically) very badly but would our opinion of him have changed now had he taken the land of the white people and kept the economy and food rolling? I seriously doubt it! In fact I think you can take loads of countries around the world and criticise the way it treats its people, purposely or unpurposely, and say their leaders are bad men for example Saudi Arabia...
Several international human rights organizations have issued reports critical of the Saudi legal system and its human rights sure they carry out amputations and floggings under the Shari'a there and lets not get into the female issue

My point is there is a King ruling...there are no recognized political parties or national elections, except the local elections which were held in the year 2005 when participation was reserved for male citizens only but do we have Gordon Brown saying lets get everyone to boycott them until they start treating their own people better? No!..instead we have Gordon Brown, your Prime Minister, over there only a few days ago visting them, cap in hand, trying to get an oil deal

Here's a list of dictators in the world...I'm not saying Robert Mugabe is a nice guy or that he doesn't deserve everything he gets I am questioning though why he's the only one we are going after in such a way? Why he's being emphasisied on so much?...and I really do feel it has alot more to do with a black leader taking back lands from the whites

* 1. Omar al-Bashir, Sudan. His human rights abuses have killed 200,000 people, driven five million from their homes, and prompted 700,000 to emigrate.
* 2. Kim Jong-Il, North Korea. While North Korea is a communist state, Kim's family follows the highly centralized, patriarchal ruling model of Confucianism. His citizens are more shut off from the world than those of any other nation.
* 3. Sayyid Ali Khamenei, Iran. It is this ayatollah and his Guardian Council who control all decisions regarding the country's international relations, nuclear program, and domestic freedoms. It increasingly suppresses freedom of expression. Women can be stoned to death for adultery and a man was publicly hanged for homosexuality.
* 4. Hu Jin-Tao, China. The U.S. State Department has identified 22 areas of human rights violations including torture, forced abortions, forced labor, detention of religious groups, restrictions on speech and restrictions on the media. Citizens are executed for nonviolent crimes such as bribery and theft of oil.
* 5. King Abdullah, Saudi Arabia. It is possible to be executed for witchcraft and to be flogged for being alone with a person of the opposite sex. It is illegal to practice any religion other than Islam. School textbooks are virulently anti-Christian and antisemitic. The U.S. State Department lists Saudi Arabia among the top eight offenders of religious freedom.
* 6. Than Shwe, Burma. The citizens are still waiting for a new constitution promised 17 years ago. Reporters Without Borders ranks Burma 164th out of 168th in its press freedom index. Burmese have been arrested for selling videotapes of foreign news reports on the 2004 tsunami.
* 7. Robert Mugabe, Zimbabwe. Under his rule the health and well-being of his people have dropped so dramatically as to constitute an abuse of human rights. Zimbabwe has the world's shortest life expectancy, 37 for men and 34 for women. It has the greatest percentage of orphans, 25%, and the worst annual inflation rate, nearly 1,300%.
* 8. Islam Karimov, Uzbekistan. He came to power using old-fashioned Soviet methods of torture, media censorship and fake elections. He has banned the study of Arabic in an Islamic nation and ordered the massacre of hundreds of his citizens.
* 9. Muammar al-Qaddafi, Libya. He has been in power the longest of any of these dictators, 38 years. During most of that time he was a conspicuous supporter of international terrorism. In his country political prisoners disappear and women who have been raped or merely accused of extramarital sex can be kept in "rehabilitation" homes indefinitely.
* 10. Bashar al-Assad, Syria. His administration has been implicated in assassinations in neighboring Lebanon

We can't have it both ways we can't make deals with tyrants and then criticise other ones who have annoyed us lately...well thats my opinion

Catnapper

No, our opinion of him would have been the same because of the way he forced the farmers off "their" land! I know you'll be thinking the whites got the land by force in some instances so he's only doing the same back, but by doing that, he's acting the same as the British he hates so much! He gave the land back to the people in his army, who haven't a clue how to farm the land, rather than to ordinary people who might have made a success of things.

I know what you mean about tyrants and dictators Luc......we ended up going after Saddam Hussein and look what's still happening there. There's no easy solution to how we deal with these dictators.......I see Paddy Ashdown's saying we might have to intervene in Zimbabwe......I hope he doesn't mean we'll be sending yet more soldiers to deal with things there. African countries could do more by criticising Mugabe but they greet him like a long long relative every time he goes to summits in their countries!

Talking about what you said about Gordon Brown.......I think it's scary having him trying to get the Saudis investing in hundreds of nuclear reactors in Britain

I know we need the power but any terrorists would have a field day with so many targets to go at

Lucifer_666

Yeah he destroyed their economy and now people are suffering but he's by no means the only leader to have done a stupid thing while running a country that resulted in his subjects suffering..think of all those African states that used aid on weapons for years while their people starved.....I really do think the only reason we are making such an issue of him is because of the whites being stripped of land...

I also think it would be a complete joke if the UN or something went into Zimbabwe now.....there is loads of countries out there with various human right violations and very dodgy democratic elections (many with none) but we don't go in to attack them???

And in fairness to the African Countries leaders...they are doing no less than what the so called democratic ones do with other certain countries for example the West with Saudia Arabia

I did think that was strange myself.....why have these people investing? Was it not bad enough to have them for years controlling our oil supplies now they want to move them on to the energy reserves after the oil dries up? Surely British Nuclear energy and future should be kept in British hands?

Catnapper

I should imagine the reasons why NATO don't go after other dictators is because some of them have access to, or are building, nuclear weapons so they've got to tread carefully. But with Mugabe, he's suppressing his people and denying them the right to vote in a proper election. He's in his 80s now and can't go on forever so I wonder what'll happen after he dies?

I'm hoping NATO don't send in troops either.......it's always Britain who gets roped in to send soldiers and we can't go on keep having soldiers killed. They've tried sanctions against Mugabe....that didn't work and I doubt if he'd listen to any other leader, African or otherwise, so I can't really see a solution unless the people revolted against him.

Yeah Brown and the Saudis is very strange.......it's like he wants hundreds of nuclear power stations here but won't shell out the money for them. You're right Luc, something as important as nuclear power stations should be kept firmly in British hands. We're already held to ransom by foreign companies who control gas and electricity, the Saudis have the oil.......and Brown wants nuclear stations foreign owned too.....he's mad!

Lucifer_666

If things were that bad in the country you would imagine that there would be revolts like every other country that has removed a leader

I'm shocked at the whole Nuclear thing aswell...its keeping the power with the middle east when surely they should be keeping it Western or British

Emperor Morphetine

It does all seem a bit hypocritical- Brown deploring Zimbabwe while making deals with the Saudis, who aren't exactly renowned for a humanitarian outlook on government. But it isn't just these two who need taking care of, its dictators anywhere- such contempt for their own people is sickening and needs to stop now. It's barbaric and makes a mockery of the political system.

Lucifer_666

I think it makes us look very selective....yeah lets go after some dictators...the ones we know we can bully but leave the others who we are afraid of alone...your right morphy ...it is hypocritical

Catnapper

You'll always get dictators.........history's full of them!

But sending troops in won't solve matters and could make things worse if Mugabe's allies in Africa side with him.

Lucifer_666

I agree with you babe....I personally think it is down to the Zimbabwean people to remove him themselves not outside powers....like I said REVOLT people!!

Lucifer_666

In saying that I do question whether he is so hated in his country too ....we were fed that same story when it came to Saddam in Iraq and I think its pretty fair to say now that he was liked by a big crowd there.....but like every other leader in the world he has his haters and enemies.....sure look at Brown in the UK now

He's hardly liked by the british people

Emperor Morphetine

I guess if the Zimbabweans were unhappy they'd have revolted years ago, he's been in power for a long time. But perhaps it was fear that stopped them before and I think its whats stopping them now, he's continuing his campaign of intimidation against the Movement For Democratic Change and its supporters. If Tsvangirai really wanted to make a stand he wouldn't have backed out of the election, he'd have mobilised people against Mugabe, who would have probably been put before the UN and got the 'Saddam shuffle' ( death penalty) by now if people had stood up to him.

I don't see any reason why he'd be popular amongst his people ( certainly the white population of the country), he's a despot and a criminal who deserves punishment, just as Saddam Hussein got.

Lucifer_666

Yeah but almost every revolt in history had a bad dictator that the people hated and feared but they still rose up..I personally think the UN would be much better and far more effective if they said to someone like Mugabe no we will never directly enter Zimbabwe to get you but we will do this.... as soon as your own people start mobilising against you in revoltution we will help arm them, train them, we will aid them we will give them intelligence (okay for what that is worth lately

) But I think this may spur on the people if there is real disturbance with his leadership there
but and I know I seem like the one voice speaking from the darkness here

but I'm not entirely convinced he is so hated there...well I think he's no more hated than any other Western Leader in their country

And yeah maybe his people are been censored and only shown one side in the media there but I think all countries have their own extremes of that...for example for a long time the media in America were painting the War in Iraq as a great successful thing

Catnapper

Leaders from other African countries are supposed to be having a crisis meeting about Zimbabwe today. If they all came together and denounced him that would be a good thing but I can't see it making much difference, apart from NATO and the West being happy they've sided against him. He'd still go on doing whatever he wants because he believes he's in the right all the time.

I'm not sure about your idea Luc of training and arming the people so they revolt against him.....it sounds a good idea in principle

but if that happened, you could get countries like Iran and Libya getting involved and supplying Mugage with weapons.

Emperor Morphetine

Apparently as a small sanction Zimbabwe's cricket team will not be allowed to tour England next summer on account of the political unrest. While it's not much it's a start, and hopefully bigger action will follow as the UN clamps down on him.

Lucifer_666

I do think you have a point Cat with perhaps others arming him ...I also think countries like Russia and China in the securtiy council of the UN would never agree to it as they are very much keeping their people down too

As for sanctions they already have some on the country don't they? and they aren't working so I'm not holding my breath on other effective clamp downs

didn't zimbawe pull out their cricket team from a tournament a few years back?

Catnapper

I think there are sanctions Luc but it looks like things are being stepped up even more now. Nelson Mandela's finally spoke out against Mugabe, The Queen's stripped him of his Honorary Knighthood and Gordon Brown's banning their cricket team from next years tournament..........I doubt if Mugabe will bother about it all, cause he's only interested in Friday's election so he can say the people voted for him to carry on leading Zimbabwe.

Lucifer_666

Does anyone actually know how he got the Honoury Knighthood in the first place??

Catnapper

It's something the Queen apparently bestows on world leaders.......I don't agree with it cause it kind of demeans the title somehow!

Lucifer_666

Or is it only world leaders from previous british colonial rule babe?

Emperor Morphetine

I don't see how he got it in the first place! Apparently he received it when John Major was Prime Minister. But surely no government could have been so stupid as to award it to him even then?

Lucifer_666

I was just listening to debate here on Irish tv on this and they were saying that the West incuding the UK were not very helpful years ago in terms of his situation in Africa as he was seen as the pearl in the west....kind of reminds me of the way they used to have Saddam before his usefulness ends and they make him 'the bad guy'

Catnapper

Lucifer_666

Yeah sorry for all that those years of raping your resources and stealing identities here have a Knighthood

I also think its another way for the British to stretch out their importance and make everyone feel in the UK that they still have an Empire..like come on what is with all this Knighhood giving to other countrys leaders?
Its not far off what old kings used to do by marrying their families into other countries ruling royals

Catnapper

We don't just give them to world leaders Luc.......Bill Gates and Steven Spielberg have Honorary Knighthoods too

I wonder if the British man who invented the world's first computer got a Knighthood? Bill Gates should thank him for being so clever

Lucifer_666

Yeah I also laugh at that too....years ago I always thought Knighthoods were for the British and perhaps those other foreigners who perhaps made a difference in the UK...Spielberg is hardly that

Catnapper

Spielberg got it for bringing business to Britain......he makes a lot of films here and uses British expertise. One person who got a Knighthood who shouldn't have was Sean Connery.......he spent his time slagging off the English while demanding Independance for Scotland.......but he kept on moaning about not having a Knighthood....till he eventually got one! Cheek!!

Going back to Mugabe though, the election's going ahead today and his supporters are forcing people to vote. When you vote there, you get an ink mark on your finger (apparently) to show you've voted.....so people are frightened what'll happen when his supporters see no ink mark......

Lucifer_666

I'm sure there are many American business men who bring much more work and business to the UK but don't get a Knighthood.....if you ask me he got it because of who he is

Can they not just dip their finger into some ink at home

reminds me of here in Ireland when it was Ash Wednesday and my Mother some years having to put ashes from the house on our foreheads to make it look like we got it at mass

Catnapper

I think they should scrap the whole honours system anyway......it's stupid how they hand out honours the way they do.

What did the priest say?!!

Lucifer_666

What when he's putting the ashes on the foreheads? ....he says something like..... "that you are dust, and to dust you shall return." words to that effect

My Mother used to just say "get over here....now go on to school"

Catnapper

No, I meant about you not going to Mass Luc! Did the priest come round to your house asking why you hadn't been to church?!

Lucifer_666

No he wouldn't come around to check that now...but you see we were all at catholic run schools I was thought by Brothers (basically teachers who dressed like priests as in long black dresses and white colars but had no qualms about hitting or punnishments) and you had to call them Brother...if you said Sir you'd be in trouble...have you ever seen the movie 'Catholic boys'it wasn't far away from that set up really except of course they were more extreme in that film though my Dad remembered them being that nasty..luckily enough the no hitting ban was coming in when I was young so it was being slowly edged out but I do remember being hit on many occasions at school

...where was I? Oh yeah.....you see thats why my mother kind of had to put ashes on our foreheads because you would get into trouble at school for not having it

Catnapper

Why am I not surprised you got into trouble at school Luc

Those priests sounded nasty.......and they were supposed to be men of God too

Did you see Mugabe voting on the news? That election's a complete farce but there wasn't much people could do about it.

Lucifer_666

They were part of a religious brotherhood and there is few different ones around the world....some were alright but most were friggars and not really what I consider religious even though you would spend the guts of the first hour every day in class just saying the rosary

He's declared victory now and is meeting with all the other African Leaders today......it will interesting to hear what they say now

Emperor Morphetine

Hopefully it'll be 'Leave office or we'll sort you out!'

Lucifer_666

Well considering there is a load of other leaders around that table in the African Union that rig elections and rule with an iron grip I suppose it was unlikely that they were going to speak out against Mugabe doing it....but it does nbring me back to the original question of why we seem so focused on just Mugabe and like I said before I don't feel particularly from the UK press that there is real balance in their reporting of this issue

Catnapper

Didn't Idi Amin get the same sort of coverage years ago? He was a dictator too by all accounts but at least he left power eventually.....not like Mugabe.

I can't see how Mugabe can ever be forced out........he isn't bothered about any sanctions against Zimbabwe and if Britain sent soldiers in, he'd be ranting about British rule again and could stir up other African countries to fight with him.

Lucifer_666

I don't think anyone else has gotten this kind of consistent coverage IMO and even though its on the news in lots of other countries the past week with the elections....the UK media has been running this Mugabe story for ages now....its like a bone they can't let go of..well thats what it looks like to me

Catnapper

I see Russia and China are refusing to take sanctions against him, same as the S.African PM..........I can see him carrying on till he eventually dies.

Lucifer_666

I still don't see why Zimbabwe is being singled out.....even channel four last night took at least four other countries in Africa and listed a load of similarities they have with Zimbabwe.....as in rigged elections or no elections at all and varied human right violations and long term leaders who have led longer or round about the same amount of years as Mugabe....but yet its all phasers set to Mugabe and Zimbabwe?? I don't get it

Catnapper

A lot of it's to do with the elections I reckon.......people have been getting in touch with the BBC from Zimbabwe saying what's going on there with the intimidation and killings. Mugabe banning British jounalists/tv crews didn't help either......then you had the white farmers in the news too......so all the media attention was bound to focus on Mugabe.

Lucifer_666

I know the british don't want to see this but I really feel its a hell of alot more to do with the white land been taken than anything else after all he's not the only leader that uses intimidation to rig elections...there is leaders all around the world that do that.....

I can understand the focus now this past week or so on Zimbabwe but the UK media have been on about this country and leader for years now....he's always on the news well before these elections

Emperor Morphetine

Well, it does go on all over Africa and in some other countries, but Mugabe's evil has been holding court over Zimbabweans for years and I think the time has come to say 'enough is enough' ( not just there but in all the countries in the grip of fear and intimidation). It's a tricky issue and one only the UN can have any hope of solving quickly. Apparently trade sanctions have been placed on the country- Tesco among others has pledged to stop importing produce from the country because of the poor working conditions for the farmers who remain, as of course some had their land seized when Mugabe took power.

Apparently only one leader at the African nations conference has appealed for the terror to stop, which tells quite a story, so could it be that more than one of them is in the exact same position having taken power by force?

Lucifer_666

There is loads of countries in Africa that have leaders just as long in power as Mugabe and haven't held elections for years.....only lately beginning to but these have also been highly rigged too or so it is widely believed...I understand the premise of taking out all leaders in all countries like this but lets face it that is not happening here ...they are going after one country....this so reminds me of before the Iraq war when people used to say about going after all countries like Iraq when the real fact is there was only one xountry that is being focused and will ever be focused on

Emperor Morphetine

Yes, very true. I think the main reason why Zimbabwe is being focused on so much is that the British government gave it independent status in 1980 after some years as a colony or something and now they realise they may have dropped the ball on that one.

Lucifer_666

There must have been alot of annoyance there though at white people (mostly either British or of British descent) who owned most of the land and made most of the money employing the black population that Mugabe took it away from them in the first place...I know the media like to play it up that he's just this evil guy but I wonder was he doing something that was making him instantly popular and something others there believed only right ....Now I'm not saying I agree with what happened I'm just asking the question of what the black majority felt and thought particularly at the time?? and I do realise it has turned out disasterous for their economy...but what if it hadn't?

Emperor Morphetine

It is a possibility, as you do hear of 'race riots' and suchlike.