Lisbon Treaty

Lucifer_666 · Lisbon Treaty

Oh yeah thats what you get Europe for kicking our Turkey out in the semis...we're rejecting your big treaty now and seriously put back your big European plans mwahahahahahahahahahahah

In case nobody has heard Ireland the only country to have an actual people vote on the Lisbon Treaty.... is looking like has rejected it

But I think its a joke there is now talk of legal wranglings being done with Ireland so that the Treaty can go on with everyone else but that Ireland will remain in Europe too....in other words Ireland's vote is not the one they wanted and so ignored.....European democracy?? I don't think so??? Its a joke!!

Catnapper

How weird....I only just asked you if you'd voted over on the Highland Hoose thread

Ireland says Noooooooooo!! .......yeah good on you Ireland

......though it won't make a blind bit of difference like you said so Luc! It's a wonder you're not told to keep on voting till you come up with a yes vote

Let's hope the UK gets a chance to vote.......but I'm not holding my breath

Lucifer_666

I answered you there on that

Thats what happened the last time Ireland said no to something in Europe ...we ended up voting again until we got the answer they wanted...your right ...we will just be ignored on it and they will never vote for it in the UK...trust me...Ireland is the only country that has it in its constitutional rights that treaties like this must go towards the people

Catnapper

And I answered your answer

They use strong arm tactics to try and get their way......I read how one Euro official more or less warned Ireland not to expect any Euro grants if they voted no......that's disgusting

Did you see how one UK businessman is taking the Govt to court because they promised UK voters a referendum in their election manifesto...then went back on the promise? I can't see him winning but I'd love a High Court judge to rule in his favour and say the Govt broke the law!

lord vader

every governing body and other things like unions and companies when they put out things like this if you reject them they keep doing it till they get a yes vote , friggin bams . if we say no then it's no

Lucifer_666

And I answered your answer again

Yeah there was alot of scare tactics going on during the vote campaign making out that we would be seriously damaged in Europe ..as you say no grants .stuff like that...I am happy that Ireland didn't listen and exercised our democracy

I do think its wrong that the Labour government went back on their promise like that...no wonder Brown is unpopular

I agree too Sta your right no matter what it is if its rejected its rejected

Emperor Morphetine

I think the treaty's an obscene idea, especially after all these revelations of what MEPs have been doing to abuse their powers. To be frank I don't trust these people.

Lucifer_666

I find it difficult to trust these European politicians too, here in Ireland far too many of our own politicians where advocating a yes vote and basically scaremongering on what would happen if we didn't ratify the treaty...literally every big party here were championing a 'YES' vote which IMO makes the Irish no vote even more profound...and I really do believe that a referendum was held in any of the other countries including the UK I think the same result would occur...its the politicians and big business crowds that want this not the people

Catnapper

I find it scary how they'll be able to dictate to us on law, immigration and other important issues. They seem to be creating some vast super state where we'll all abide by the same rules and be answerable to Brussels rather than our own countries. We should never have joined in the first place

Lucifer_666

It will be the Unites States of Europe eventually...... What they couldn't do by force....France and Germany and others are going to do with politics

Emperor Morphetine

Hopefully it will soon die in the water, it can't go through if even one of the member states votes against it, and apparently the Czech Republic has indicated it won't seek to ratify it. Hopefully we shan't, although rumour has it Gordon Brown is still trying to push it through Parliament.

Which in my opinion is wrong, we should be allowed a referendum on the matter. Surely he can't just expect Britain to take this and do as he says when the document will have an impact on things as important as civil liberties?

It's a joke really.

Catnapper

Come on you Czechs

Gordon Brown is determined to ratify it and he won't listen to reason about a referendum......so much for us being a democracy

Emperor Morphetine

My theory is that Gordon Brown will declare himself Emperor of Britain and reveal that he has turned to the Dark Side as a puppet of Blair. It would explain his wanting to take away basic freedoms...

Lucifer_666

I hope that is true about the Czechs because I was starting to really worry that every other country was going to ratify this treaty in order to put pressure or bully Ireland into doing the vote again or to agree to some kind of outside agreement that we stay in Europe but that they can move on with the final ratification processes without the Irish

The funny part about Gordon Brown is that he's after pushing through (with much difficulty) this 42 day detention thing for suspected terrorists and the laugh is not only will it get rejected by the House of Lords but will also be seriously rejected and opposed in Europe

yet he's still ratifying this treaty

If BLiar eventually becomes President of Europe I think it will further enhance that theory of yours Morphy

The creepy part is that there is a possibility of it

Catnapper

It said in today's paper that the EU want one of our aircraft carriers to put in an EU navy and it'll fly the EU flag

The French President said he's had talks with Gordon Brown about it........I hope Brown tells him where to go!

But I had to laugh at the Tory Shadow Defence Secretary who said "The whole concept of sharing naval assets with any other country is nonsense. How is it supposed to work? Do we say, 'Sorry, it's our turn to use the carrier?'

If there's a vast EU Navy.......who are they supposed to be protecting us from?

Lucifer_666

America perhaps babe

....I'm laughing at that but there is a sense of truth in that statement....I think alot of people including myself at one stage (when Bush was at his height of acting like a war mongering prat) was thinking we needed a more powerful Europe to counter balance a super powered America and make it less likely for them to go off in some coalition of a few but this should never happen unless all the people of Europe agree and I do mean the people not politicians

Emperor Morphetine

I read about that too, and I think it's a bad idea. Having seamen at the beck and call of the Brussels fatcats? What possible good use could they have for them except protecting their own greedy interests? I tell you, I just can't trust these people, they fiddle expenses, pass pointless legislation and yet seemingly get away with it to a large extent.

I'm all for a better Europe but do these people have to continue wasting member states time?

Lucifer_666

I see the Liberal Democrats helped the Government in the House Of Lords pass the ratification process for this.......

like of all people .....after all... this treaty is hardly democratic or liberal

I agree Morphy I'm for a better Europe too one led by the people not a load of politicians and their big business backers

I really can see them waiting a while and then there being a few changes made and brought back to the Irish to vote again

Catnapper

I can't understand why MP's are voted for by the people to represent their interests, then they totally ignore the public's views and vote things through which then become law

If they want a united Europe then they should start listening to people or else I can see big trouble ahead..........people will only put up with things for so long before protesting on the streets.

I can see the Euro politicians trying to force Ireland into voting yes to the Treaty, which is bullying in my book.

Lucifer_666

I'm in the same line of thinking as you babe I just don't get how politicians get away with it but more times than not they do...here in Ireland our last PM was up to every shady deal but the people still voted him in time after time

its frustrating

And its looking very like Ireland is going to end up being pressured

Catnapper

It makes me think politicians are just in for themselves and whatever perks/freebies they can get........plus, they like the power too. They should have people like us running the government and making decisions

Lucifer_666

Power corrupts and it is true...I also think there has been a sense of dishonesty and getting perks/freebies now in politics for a very long time and I think its almost expected and normal for all new politicians

Catnapper

I think too there's a lot of this "you side with me and I'll do the same back" type of mentality and a lot of arm forcing too like they'll do with the Irish voters.

Emperor Morphetine

I think a lot more corruption goes on in the corridors of power than is publicised in the media. It does seem that the Lisbon Treaty is just a document they think they can hide behind when it all goes wrong for them.

Lucifer_666

I agree with what both of you are saying there..these people are asses I'd love if other countries started saying too "No we aren't going ahead now" and they stand with the Irish people but sadly it won;t happen...even our own Irish politicians it appears are going over there like apologists or like bold children that have just been caught...instead of even using it as an oportunity if nothing else

Lucifer_666

Just watching This Week on BBC there now and I have to say what Michael Portillo said about Lisbon and Europe was profound...he said "Isn't it quite stark that we criticise Mugabe for over riding the people vote and declare him an enemy of democracy but that it is quite alright for the European union to do exactly the same thing?" and he's spot on there!!

He and Diane Abbott also reckon that the Irish are either going to be ignored and it brought through using a back door kind of method or that the Irish will be told to keep voting until they come up with the apparent correct answer

Catnapper

He's got a point there.....the European bureaucrats are using bullying tactics to get their own way. The EU might have set out with good intentions at first, but it's rapidly developing into some kind of superpower which forces people into agreeing with them

I'm disgusted at how Gordon Brown didn't let us in the UK have the referendum we were promised........and how he hasn't supported the Irish in their stance against the Lisbon Treaty. He wasn't elected to be our Prime Minister so he should stand down and let us have a PM with some backbone who isn't afraid to speak out against the EU.

Lucifer_666

Apparantly they were heaping praise on Brown in Europe for bringing the ratification through the UK and not stalling it
Great.....he gets a pat in the back for being completely undemocratic with this as they all knew he had to do it now before a Conservative Government get power in England and to make sure it didn't go to the people because they would have rejected it

Catnapper

He's like Tony Blair....always toadying up to the EU. They've probably promised Brown a job when he's finally turfed out of power.......it's all about position and what you personally gain from politics rather than looking after the people.

Lucifer_666

Unfortunately I think your right there....these politicians don't care about their own people but the wider view of them in the world

I see though he has had to declare that they will have to wait until a high court ruling before ratifying it in the UK

Catnapper

Ah that'll be the High Court case where a man's taken the government to court for not upholding their election promise..........you can bet lawyers are frantically searching for ways to let the Govt get away with it. I'd love the judge to rule in the man's favour......but he won't.

Lucifer_666

Wouldn't that just be amazing if he did....Ahhh I'd laugh if that happened

but I fear your right

Emperor Morphetine

I read today that there's a lot of pressure on the Irish government to change their minds and back the Treaty, which to me seems a bit like playground bullying in the Brussels corridors with those who say no to a popular fad being snubbed by everyone else. Apparently the pro-Lisbon nations are prepared to kick Ireland out of the EU for not conforming to what they want, which is plain wrong and surely goes against the EU Constitution!

It's nuts, and the sooner the Treaty dies the better I think, it's just a 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' Euro politicians club.

Lucifer_666

You can already feel the pressure on the Irish here...every two minutes we have Cowen and his other Ministers coming out saying how bad the no vote was and that this is unknown territory and bad for our economy...they will keep this up until they are sure enough Irish are scared enough to vote yes they may also then throw in the odd concession or change but I'm positive Ireland will be voting again on this until we get the answer they want

Some Democracy eh?

Catnapper

A French newspaper said the French President called the Irish voters "b****y fools"

..... nice to know what he really thinks

The EU should give up on the idea of everything being controlled by Brussels......all countries are different so you can't force countries to all adopt the same laws and regulations.

Lucifer_666

Oh I can't wait for the vote to come back now to Ireland after that French guys words because that has just changed my stance and I'm just dying to vote for his treaty now

When I think about it he's right us bloody Irish fools with our democratic ways and people votes....how inconvenient we are when they are trying to stream through new procedures that will diminish accountability and Democracy in Europe...

We Democratic Irish....who the hell do we think we are?

Catnapper

You're a lot more fortunate than us because at least you got a chance to vote

what do we get..........nothing!!

I hope you vote no again if they say it has to go to another vote

Emperor Morphetine

It still rattles me that we English didn't get a say, as being one of the most populated member states surely we should be given a degree of say on the matter. But it just goes to show that Gordon Brown is out of touch with the people on the streets of his country.

Catnapper

We're one of the biggest contributors to the EU too and we still don't get a say in it

Gordon Brown won't let us have a referendum cause he knows we'll say NO.

Lucifer_666

I was watching a view political shows here about this over the weekend and its widely believed we are going to get this treaty back to us..rest assured babe I will be voting no if it does come back unfortunately I think they will put that much scaremongering out there that people will be afraid to say 'no' next time..Cowen and other Irish MEPs are also constantly saying that there is no renogitiating that can be done on the treaty but I feel even that now is pr because they don't want people thinking that this can go in a different direction but where they want to take us

I'm not really surprised to see Brown not giving the vote to the people as I think no matter what country in Europe we're talking about here I think each would have trouble getting YES votes

Catnapper

The issue's kind of gone away here now......I expected lots of discussions and articles in the papers but there doesn't seem to be much. Maybe everyone's waiting to hear how the EU deals with the Irish 'no' vote and if they'll have to vote again. I just wish Brown would stick up for the Irish and say they got the vote right!

Emperor Morphetine

It should've been and gone by now, its a pointless piece of legislation. Any treaty has to be sworn in fairly and not just bulldozed through Europe, as it seems this one has.

Lucifer_666

Its very much still scrutinied here...its become a major event here

...there will be more polls in the next few months of why we voted no it will be a holy terror